Author: admin_gst

GST Credit appearing as Ineligble in Bill To -Ship To Transactions
Query (Issue) Started By: – Sachin Mohite Dated:- 30-10-2017 Last Reply Date:- 5-11-2017 Goods and Services Tax – GST
Got 9 Replies
GST
Dear Sir/ Madam,
One of our client (A) of Maharashtra Supplied Material to (C) of Gujarat on the instruction of his customer (B) at Maharashtra. Consideration is paid by B to A and B further raised invoice to C.
A has applied IGST, as material moving outside Maharashtra, in its Invoice to B as per Section 7 of IGST and accordingly uploaded Return showing Place of Supply as Gujarat.
However in GSTR 2 of B on Portal, said invoice is appearing but showing ineligible for tax credit to B.Since apply of IGST by A is as per provisio

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Software Developed for GST.
Reply By MUKUND THAKKAR:
The Reply:
Where is B is located ?
Reply By Sachin Mohite:
The Reply:
B is Located in Maharashtra
Reply By MARIAPPAN GOVINDARAJAN:
The Reply:
You can approach the Helpdesk.
Reply By MUKUND THAKKAR:
The Reply:
if you are loacated in Maharashtra and supplier A is also Maharashtra in transcation is Bill to Ship to than your supplier should be charge only CGST and SGST not IGST. please makes necessary correction in GSTR-2 by adding invoice mode and rectify mistakes.
Reply By Ganeshan Kalyani:
The Reply:
Place of supply is that place where invoice is raised. Here invoice is raised within the State. Hence CGST , SGST will be applicable.
Reply By Sachin Mohite:
The Reply:
Dear Sir

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. Thus in the said contract B is the 2nd Person and C will be the third person. In Invoice by A to B IGST is charged and also in invoice by B to C IGST is charged.
In our case material is delivered at the instruction of 2nd Person (B) only and not at the instruction of 3rd Person (C). Thus Section 10(1)(b) can not be invoked in our case as in our opinion Section 10(1)(a) squarely apply and attract IGST for Invoice to B by A [ as per Section 7 read with section 10(1)(a) ] since the material is moving out of Maharashtra and the movement of goods terminate at Gujarat.
As per Section 20 of IGST Act, for Input Tax Credit, Provisions of CGST Act will apply. Further as per Section 16 of CGST Act, condition for claiming Input Tax Credit is as fol

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Are you a Tally ERP 9 user and want to file your GSTR 2?
Query (Issue) Started By: – Masoom Sahoo Dated:- 30-10-2017 Last Reply Date:- 31-10-2017 Goods and Services Tax – GST
Got 2 Replies
GST
*ClearTax brings special feature for Tally users on GSTR-2 filing.*
If you are an existing Tally ERP user, NO need for Tally upgrade to finish your GSTR-2. Click here to download ClearTax Tally Patch
*10000+* Tally users used ClearTax Tally patch to export purchase data from Tally and file G

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GST UPDATE ON DENIAL OF SUBSTANTIAL BENEFIT FOR TECHNICAL GLITCHES
By: – Pradeep Jain
Goods and Services Tax – GST
Dated:- 30-10-2017

It has been four months since GST has been implemented but still GST network is not free from technical glitches. Not a single return utility is error-free, whether it is online or offline. This update is about the technical errors in GST network and its impact on the admissibility of ITC.
Input tax credit (ITC) is the most crucial area of any indirect tax regime. In fact, the arrival of GST was hyped by saying that there will be free flow of ITC which was lacking in the service tax and Central excise regime. On the other hand, the free flow of ITC seems to be a dream as there are number of cases where the availment of ITC is being hindered due to technical errors. Some of such cases are given as follows:-
* If any invoice is not uploaded by the supplier and mistakenly the GSTR-1 is filed. Suppose the buyer also forgets to show the inv

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actions are possible in such a case:-
* The buyer shows it in missing invoices and it is accepted by the supplier. However, once it is accepted, the tax will be again payable by the supplier on the same. This will not be acceptable to supplier as he had already paid the tax on the said invoice; only mistake was that it was wrongly shown in the "B to C" column.
* The buyer does not opts to show it in missing invoice and issues a credit note to supplier. If the supplier accepts the same, he shall have to issue a fresh invoice and it will again create a liability on him which has already been paid.
Therefore, both the options are available in this case are not practicable. In such case also, there seems the possibility that the ITC will lapse. If not, how it will be made workable by GSTN, it is not understandable.
There are a number of similar problems that the assessees are facing everyday while filing the various returns on GSTN. There seems no solution to such problems

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view of above judgment of hon'ble Supreme Court, one thing is clear that if the assessee is legally eligible for some benefit, it cannot be denied on account of some errors, even if the same has occurred at the end of assessee himself. Going by the above analogy, in the given cases also, we can say that if the assessee forgets to upload the invoice or if the invoice is uploaded but the return is not filed due to some error at the site of GSTN; it will be termed as a technical lapse only. Therefore, the analogy drawn by the Supreme Court in the case of Formica India will be equally applicable in the GST regime too and the substantial benefit of ITC cannot be denied because of these technical lapses.
Further, some civil writ petitions are being filed against the working of GSTN and errors occurring there. One such decision has been given by hon'ble Rajasthan High Court's Jaipur bench in the civil writ petition no. 15239/2017 on 5.10.2017. This writ was filed by Rajasthan Tax

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Seeks to amend Notification no. 30/2017-Central Tax dated 11.09.2017 so as to extend the due date for filing FORM GSTR-2 and FORM GSTR-3 for the month of July, 2017
54/2017 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Central GST (CGST)
GST
CGST
CGST
Government of India
Ministry of Finance
Department of Revenue
Central Board of Excise and Customs
Notification No. 54 /2017 – Central Tax
New Delhi, the 30th October, 2017
G.S.R. 1352 (E). In exercise of the powers conferred by the first proviso to sub-s

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Amendment of Notification No. (1-I/2017) No. KGST.CR.01/17-18 dated 11/09/2017 so as to extend the time limit for filing of GSTR-2 and GSTR-3 for the month of July 2017.
01-V/2017 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Karnataka SGST
GST – States
Karnataka SGST
Karnataka SGST
DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCIAL TAXES
OFFICE OF THE COMMISSIONER OF COMMERCIAL TAXES
THERIGE KARYALAYA, GANDHINAGAR, BENGALURU
NOTIFICATION (01-V/2017)
NO. KGST.CR.01/17-18, DATED: 30.10.2017
In exercise of the powers conferred by

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Extension of due date for the month of july-2017 for submission of GSTR-2 and GSTR-3 upto 30.11.2017 and 11.12.2017, respectively.
54/2017-State Tax Dated:- 30-10-2017 Maharashtra SGST
GST – States
Maharashtra SGST
Maharashtra SGST
COMMISSIONER OF STATE TAX, MAHARASHTRA STATE
GST Bhavan, Mazgaon, Mumbai 400 010, dated the 30th October 2017
NOTIFICATION
Notification No. 54/2017-State Tax
No. JC(HQ)-1/GST/2017/Noti/18/ADM-8.-In exercise of the powers conferred by the first proviso to sub-section (2) of section 38 and sub-section (6) of section 39 read with section 168 of the Maharashtra Goods and Services Tax Act, 2017 (Mah. XLII of 2017), the Commissioner of State Tax, Maharashtra State hereby makes the following amendment

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Uttarakhand Goods and Services Tax (Seventh Amendment) Rules, 2017
851/2017/9(120)/XXVII(8)/2017 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Uttarakhand SGST
GST – States
Uttarakhand SGST
Uttarakhand SGST
Government of Uttarakhand
Finance Section – 8
Notification No. 851/2017/9(120)/XXVII(8)/2017
Dehradun, Dated 30/10/2017
In exercise of the powers conferred by section 164 of the Uttarakhand Goods and Services Tax Act, 2017 (06 of 2017), the Governor is pleased to make the following rules to amend the Uttarakhand Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017, Namely: –
The Uttarakhand Goods and Services Tax (Seventh Amendment) Rules, 2017
1. Short title and Commencement
(1) These rules may be called the Uttarakhand Goods and Services Tax (Seventh Amendme

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al either directly or through a Facilitation Centre notified by the Commissioner, before the said date and shall furnish the statement in FORM GST ITC-03 in accordance with the provisions of sub – rule (4) of rule 44 within a period of ninety days from the said date:
Provided that the said persons shall not be allowed to furnish the declaration in FORM GST TRAN-1 after the statement in FORM GST ITC-03 has been furnished.”;
(ii) in sub-rule (5), after the words, brackets and figure “or sub-rule (3)”, the words, brackets, figure and letter “or sub-rule (3A)” shall be inserted;
3. Amendment in Rule 120
After rule 120 of the “Principal Rules”, the following rule shall be inserted, namely: –
“120A. Every registered person who has submitte

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mely:-
“Provided that where goods are sent by a principal located in one State to a job-worker located in any other State, the e-way bill shall be generated by the principal irrespective of the value of the consignment;
Provided further that where handicraft goods are transported from one State to another by a person who has been exempted from the requirement of obtaining registration under clauses (i) and (ii) of section 24, the e-way bill shall be generated by the said person irrespective of the value of the consignment.
Explanation – For the pruposes of this rule, the expression “handicraft goods” has the meaning as assigned to it in the Government of Uttarakhand, Finance Section 8, Notification No. 801 Dated 12 October, 2017.”;
6. A

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WBGST Rules (Eleventh) Amendment
1908-F.T.- 51/2017-State Tax Dated:- 30-10-2017 West Bengal SGST
GST – States
West Bengal SGST
West Bengal SGST
GOVERNMENT OF WEST BENGAL
FINANCE DEPARTMENT
REVENUE
NOTIFICATION No. 1908-F.T.
Dated, Howrah, the 30th day of October, 2017
No. 51/2017-State Tax
In exercise of the powers conferred by section 164 of the West Bengal Goods and Services Tax Act, 2017 (West Ben. XXVIII of 2017), the Governor is pleased hereby to make the following rules further to amend the West Bengal Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017, namely:-
(1) These rules may be called the West Bengal Goods and Services Tax (Eleventh Amendment) Rules, 2017.
(2) They shall be deemed to have come into force from the 28th

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, namely:-
"Provided that where the date for furnishing the details of outward supplies in FORM GSTR-1 for a tax period has been extended in exercise of the powers conferred under section 37 of the Act, the supplier shall furnish the information relating to exports as specified in Table 6A of FORM GSTR-1 after the return in FORM GSTR-3B has been furnished and the same shall be transmitted electronically by the common portal to the system designated by the Customs:
Provided further that the information in Table 6A furnished under the first proviso shall be auto-drafted in FORM GSTR-1 for the said tax period.";
(iv) in rule 96A, in sub-rule (2), the following provisos shall be inserted, namely:-
"Provided that where the dat

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Bihar Goods and Services Tax (Ninth Amendment) Rules, 2017
S.O. 257 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Bihar SGST
GST – States
Bihar SGST
Bihar SGST
Bihar Government
Commercial Tax Department
The 30th October 2017
S.O. 257, dated 30th October 2017- In exercise of the powers conferred by section 164 of the Bihar Goods and Services Tax Act, 2017 (12 of 2017), the Governor of Bihar, hereby makes the following rules further to amend the Bihar Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017, namely:-
(1) These rules may be called the Bihar Goods and Services Tax (Ninth Amendment) Rules, 2017.
(2) They shall come into force with effect from 28th October, 2017.
2. In the Bihar Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017-
(i) in rule 24, in sub-rule (4), for the

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rs conferred under section 37 of the Act, the supplier shall furnish the information relating to exports as specified in Table 6A of FORM GSTR-1 after the return in FORM GSTR-3B has been furnished and the same shall be transmitted electronically by the common portal to the system designated by the Customs:
Provided further that the information in Table 6A furnished under the first proviso shall be auto-drafted in FORM GSTR-1 for the said tax period.”;
(iv) in rule 96A, in sub-rule (2), the following provisos shall be inserted, namely-
“Provided that where the date for furnishing the details of outward supplies in FORM GSTR-1 for a tax period has been extended in exercise of the powers conferred under section 37 of the Act, the supplie

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Extension of time limit for intimation of details of stock held on the date preceding the date from which the option for composition levy is exercised in FORM GST CMP-03.
09/2017-GST Dated:- 30-10-2017 Assam SGST
GST – States
GOVERNMENT OF ASSAM
ORDERS BY THE COMMISSIONER OF STATE TAX, ASSAM
KAR BHAWAN, DISPUR, GUWAHATI-6
ORDER No. 09/2017-GST
Dated Dispur, the 30th October, 2017.
Subject: Extension of time limit for intimation of details of stock held on the date preceding the dat

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Extension of time limit for submitting application in FORM GST REG-26
10/2017-GST Dated:- 30-10-2017 Assam SGST
GST – States
GOVERNMENT OF ASSAM
ORDERS BY THE COMMISSIONER OF STATE TAX; ASSAM
KAR BHAWAN, DISPUR, GUWAHATI-6
ORDER No. 10/2017-GST
Dated Dispur, the 30th October, 2017.
Subject: Extension of time limit for submitting application in FORM GST REG-26
No. CT/GST-12/2017/41.- In exercise of the powers conferred by clause (b) of sub-rule (2) of rule 24 of the Assam Goods and

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Extension of time limit for submitting the declaration in FORM GST TRAN-1 under rule 117 of the Assam Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017.
11/2017-GST Dated:- 30-10-2017 Assam SGST
GST – States
GOVERNMENT OF ASSAM
ORDERS BY THE COMMISSIONER OF STATE TAX, ASSAM
KAR BHAWAN, DISPUR, GUWAHATI-6
ORDER No.11/2017-GST
Dated Dispur, the 30th October, 2017.
Subject: Extension of time limit for submitting the declaration in FORM GST TRAN-1 under rule 117 of the Assam Goods and Services Tax Ru

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Extension of time limit for submitting the declaration in FORM GST TRAN-1 under rule 120A of the Assam Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017.
12/2017-GST Dated:- 30-10-2017 Assam SGST
GST – States
GOVERNMENT OF ASSAM
ORDERS BY THE COMMISSIONER OF STATE TAX, ASSAM
KAR BIIAWAN, DISPUR, GUWAHATI-6
ORDER No.12/2017-GST
Dated Dispur, the 30th October, 2017.
Subject: Extension of time limit for submitting the declaration in FORM GST TRAN-1 under rule 120A of the Assam Goods and Services Tax

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Extension of time limit for intimation of details of stock held on the date preceding the date from which the option for composition levy is exercised in FORM GST CMP-03.
CCT/26-2/2017-18/5 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Goa SGST
GST – States
GOVERNMENT OF GOA
Department of Finance
Office of the Commissioner of Commercial Taxes
–
Order
No. CCT/26-2/2017-18/5
Subject: Extension of time limit for intimation of details of stock held on the date preceding the date from which the option for compos

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Extension of time limit for submitting application in FORM GST REG-26.
CCT/26-2/2017-18/6 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Goa SGST
GST – States
GOVERNMENT OF GOA
Department of Finance
Office of the Commissioner of Commercial Taxes
–
Order
No. CCT/26-2/2017-18/6
Subject: Extension of time limit for submitting application in FORM GST REG-26.
In exercise of the powers conferred by Clause (b) of sub-rule (2) of Rule 24 of the Goa Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017 read with Section 168 of the Goa

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Extension of time limit for submitting the declaration in FORM GST TRAN-1 under Rule 117 of the Central Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017.
CCT/26-2/2017-18/7 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Goa SGST
GST – States
GOVERNMENT OF GOA
Department of Finance
Office of the Commissioner of Commercial Taxes
–
Order
No. CCT/26-2/2017-18/7
Subject: Extension of time limit for submitting the declaration in FORM GST TRAN-1 under Rule 117 of the Central Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017.
In exercise of th

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Extension of time limit for submitting the declaration in FORM GST TRAN-1 under Rule 120A of the Central Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017.
CCT/26-2/2017-18/8 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Goa SGST
GST – States
GOVERNMENT OF GOA
Department of Finance
Office of the Commissioner of Commercial Taxes
–
Order
No. CCT/26-2/2017-18/8
Subject: Extension of time limit for submitting the declaration in FORM GST TRAN-1 under Rule 120A of the Central Goods and Services Tax Rules, 2017.
In exercise of

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Seeks to amend Notification No. Tax/4(53)/GST NOTN/2016/6 dated 11.09.2017 so as to extend the due date for filing FORM GSTR-2 and FORM GSTR-3 for the month of July, 2017
Tax/4(53)/GST-NOTN/2016/15 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Manipur SGST
GST – States
Manipur SGST
Manipur SGST
GOVERNMENT OF MANIPUR
DEPARTMENT OF TAXES
NOTIFICATION
Imphal, the 30th October, 2017
No. Tax/4(53)/GST-NOTN/2016/15:- In exercise of the powers conferred by the first proviso to sub-section (2) of section 38 and

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Seeks to amendments in the notification issued in F. No. 3240/CTD/GST/2017/5, dated 17th October, 2017 – extend the due date for submission of details in FORM GST-ITC-01.
F. No. 3240/CTD/GST/2017/06. Dated:- 30-10-2017 Puducherry SGST
GST – States
Puducherry SGST
Puducherry SGST
GOVERNMENT OF PUDUCHERRY
COMMERCIAL TAXES DEPARTMENT
F. No. 3240/CTD/GST/2017/6.
Puducherry, the 30th October 2017.
NOTIFICATION
In pursuance of section 168 of the Puducherry Goods and Services Tax Ac

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Manual Filing of EGM by shipping lines- Refund of Integrated Goods and Services Tax paid on exports made during the month of July
TRADE FACILITY NO. 15/2017 Dated:- 30-10-2017 Trade Notice
Customs
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA
MINISTRY OF FINANCE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
OFFICE OF THE COMMISSIONER OF CUSTOMS
CUSTOM HOUSE, WILLINGDON ISLAND, COCHIN-682009
F. No. S25/260/2017-I&B. Cus.
Dated: 30.10.2017.
TRADE FACILITY NO. 15/2017
Subject: Manual Filing of EGM by shipping lines- Refund of Integrated Goods and Services Tax paid on exports made during the month of July-reg.
Kind attention of Exporters, Importers, Customs Brokers, Steamer Agents and all other stakeholders is drawn to the letter DOF NO.450/119/2017-Cus.IV dated 25th October 2

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In Re : M/s. Pon Pure Chemical India Private Limited
GST
2018 (6) TMI 621 – AUTHORITY FOR ADVANCE RULINGS, GUJARAT – 2018 (14) G. S. T. L. 136 (A. A. R. – GST), [2018] 2 GSTL (AAR) 98 (AAR)
AUTHORITY FOR ADVANCE RULINGS, GUJARAT – AAR
Dated:- 30-10-2017
ORDER NO. GUJ/GAAR/ADM//2017-18/1 (IN APPLICATION NO. Advance Ruling/SGST&CGST/2017-18/AR/1)
GST
Mr. R.B. Mankodi, Member And Mr. G.C. Jain, Member
For The Applicant : Shri Sivarajan Kalyanaraman, CA
RULING
The application for advance ruling of M/s. Pon Pure Chemical India Pvt. Ltd. was heard on 17.10.2017 on the issue as to whether the application is fit for admission or not. Shri Shivrajan Kalyanaraman was requested on that day to submit the reasons / provisions on following issues by 23/25.10.2017.
(i) Whether the authority is within jurisdiction to admit application especially on the issue of 'place of supply'?
(ii) Whether the issue is related to Customs or is related to Goods and Services Tax?
2. The

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services or both amounts to or results in a supply of goods or services or both, within the meaning of that term.
No other issue can be decided by the Advance Ruling Authority and therefore the Acts limit the Advance Ruling Authority to decide the issues earmarked for it under Section 97(2).
4. The taxability on High Sea Sales requires the determination of occurrence of High Seas Sales. High Seas Sales are the sales taking place prior to the imported goods crossing the Customs frontier. The definition of “import of goods” as per Section 2(10) of the Integrated Goods and Services Tax Act, 2017 (herein after referred to as the 'IGST Act, 2017') is as follows :-
2(10) “import of goods” with its grammatical variations and cognate expressions, means bringing goods into India from a place outside India;
So, the import as well as High Sea Sales are determined on two basic questions of fact – (i) where the goods are and (ii) at what time the goods can be called to be entering into India

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e Goods and Services Tax domain. This fact is bolstered by the proviso to sub-section (1) of Section 5 of the IGST Act, 2017, which reads as under :-
“Provided that the integrated tax on goods imported into India shall be levied and collected in accordance with the provisions of section 3 of the Customs Tariff Act, 1975 (51 of 1975) on the value as determined under the said Act at the point when duties of customs are levied on the said goods under section 12 of the Customs Act, 1962 (52 of 1962).”
It is also observed that the Central Board of Excise and Customs has issued Circular No. 33/2017-Cus dated 01.08.2017, on the issue of High Sea Sales. Thus, the issue of High Sea Sale falls in the domain of Customs and not under the Goods and Services Tax.
7. The application is therefore rejected without going into the merits of the case, on the issue of lack of jurisdiction, at the stage of admission.
ORDER
The application for Advance Ruling dated 01.08.2017 of M/s. Pon Pure Chemical

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Amendments in the Notification number 9/2017-GST, dated the 12th September, 2017 (CT/GST-14/2017/18.
CT/GST-14/2017/053 (16/2017-GST) Dated:- 30-10-2017 Assam SGST
GST – States
Assam SGST
Assam SGST
GOVERNMENT OF ASSAM
ORDERS BY THE GOVERNOR
OFFICE OF THE COMMISSIONER OF STATE TAX ::: KAR BHAWAN
NOTIFICATION No. 16/2017-GST
The 30th October, 2017
No.CT/GST-14/2017/053.- In exercise of the powers conferred by the first proviso to sub-section (2) of section 38 and sub-section (

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Composite scheme
Query (Issue) Started By: – Anujit Bhowmik Dated:- 28-10-2017 Last Reply Date:- 7-11-2017 Goods and Services Tax – GST
Got 6 Replies
GST
Is there a composite scheme for service sector, we are into ship repairs and compete with ship repairers from Singapore, due to high 18% tax we fail to get repair jobs to INDIA from the South East.
Reply By KASTURI SETHI:
The Reply:
Only restaurant service is under composition scheme. However, Govt. is planning to bring more services under Composition Scheme.Notification can be issued at any time as it was decided by the GST Council in the last meeting.
Reply By MARIAPPAN GOVINDARAJAN:
The Reply:
I endorse the views of Shri Sethi.
Reply By Anujit Bhowmik:
The Reply:
Than

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Apparel exporters flag post-GST issues before Par panel
GST
Dated:- 28-10-2017

New Delhi, Oct 28 (PTI) Apparel exporters have brought up the problems faced by them post GST before a parliamentary panel, signalling the "strong likelihood" of a decline in garment shipments from India and possibility of job losses.
The Apparel Export Promotion Council (AEPC) made a presentation to the Parliamentary Standing Committee (Rajya Sabha) on Commerce chaired by Naresh Gujral earlier this week.
The body pressed for early consideration of tax refunds blocked on the purchase of ginned cotton (agricultural inputs such as agricultural machinery, seeds, fertilisers, power, diesel and the like) and miscellaneous central or state lev

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protect the interest of exporters.
"The positive impact of GST is yet to be felt by garment industry where input costs have not come down. Overall effect of GST on apparel exporters, especially small and medium exporters, is burdensome and stressful due to substantial increase of working capital and higher transaction cost," AEPC Chairman Ashok Rajani said. "It has not only impacted the production of apparel adversely, but has also led to pressure on margins for exporters due to lowering of drawback rates."
The council, according to him, has informed the parliamentary panel that under the prevailing circumstances, there is a strong likelihood of exports from India dipping in the near future, as the global garment indu

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GST – Frequently Asked Question
GST
Dated:- 28-10-2017

Q. If reverse charge is suspended till 31.03.2018, will GTAs have to pay tax under forward charge from now on?
Ans. No, reverse charge is being suspended only for purchases made by registered persons from unregistered persons. Reverse charge liability as notified under section 9(3) of the CGST Act, 2017, will continue to be applicable.
Q. Is it correct that one does not need to pay GST on the advance amount received for any supply?
Ans. No, the correct position is that the liability to pay GST on supply of goods shall not arise at the time of receipt of advance. GST shall have to be paid when the supply of goods is made. Please note that this is only applicable for a

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